while finding .30 carbine ammo can be a challenge at times, finding adequate quantities of .351 SL would seem an impossible task. The only rifles I can find in production are from Nosler, Remington and CVA. I have been able to get one of each of the calibers ( models) and without too much trouble or expense. In a now-famous story, Roy Weatherby launched his wildcatting career after he lost a wounded deer on his first hunt in 1942. The performance of cartridges paled in comparison to the .32 Remington (170gr bullet at 2,180fps for 1,794 ft-lbs of energy) and .35 Remington (200gr bullet at 2,080fps for 1,922ft-lbs of energy) cartridges Remington introduced with their new autoloading rifle, the Remington Model 8. With these requirements in hand, Winchester's Edwin Pugsley chose to design the cartridge with a .30 caliber, 100120 grain bullet at a velocity of 2,000 feet per second (610m/s). Rifles; Sako Rifles; Savage Rifles. I believe it never will. These seemingly small differences added up to a significant . I have all the calibers but short the 401 s and the 22 autos ,can you reload or sell a dox of each. This new model featured two new cartridges, the .350 Rem. The .351 SL cartridge used an unusual bullet diameter of .351 instead of the .357 or .358 more commonly used in .35-caliber rifle cartridges. The .350 Rem. The .30 Carbine cartridge was developed by Winchester and is basically a rimless .30 caliber (7.62mm) version of the much older .32 Winchester Self-Loading cartridge of 1906 introduced for the Winchester Model 1905 rifle. features a Weaver K 2.5 scope. They shot lever actions and bolt actions, and probably didnt understand semi auto rifles. revolvers, so why wouldnt a 35 WSL or 351 WSL not be good for hunting? 26" Barrel. Again, the above is for comparative information purposes only, and you should consult the exact ballistics for the particular .30 M1 Carbine or .30-30 Winchester cartridge you're looking at purchasing. I would like some information if possible on approximate value if in good usable condition. The .358 Norma Mag. The 35 WSL fired a 180 gr SP at 1390 fps, this duplicated the 38-40 ballistics. All that being said, if one were interested in hunting with a very unique rifle that you would be very unlikely to encounter in the woods in the hands of another hunter, the Winchester Model 1907 and Model 1910 autoloaders in .351 Winchester or .401 Winchester would be a great choice. In both cases, the recoil is the result of the action types used on these early autoloaders. The .30 Carbine's relatively straight case and round nose bullet have misled some to believe it was designed for . To put this into perspective, a Boeing 737 commercial airliner travels at a cruising speed of 600 mph, or 880 fps. 80% BLUE, NICE BORE. I think if enough people went online and contacted Winchester and Hornady, and asked them to make up a run of ammo in 351 WSL and 401 WSL in 20 round boxes, perhaps they would make a limited run. WINCHESTER 30-30 M#94. Hornadys LEVERevolution pushes the performance up a notch with a 200-grain pointed bullet at 2225 f.p.s. 26" barrels with F A near flawless vintage Voere Nato Imperial control round feed Mauser bolt action made in Austria. with a 30 round magazine! We offer rifle ammo in a number of calibers including 223 REMINGTON, 30 CARBINE, 300 WIN MAG, 307 WIN, 308 WIN, 375 WINCHESTER, 5.45 X 39MM, 7X64MM and more. They truly were ahead of their time, as they were short magnums back when being a short magnum wasnt cool. [6] (The .30 Carbine's relatively straight case and round nose bullet have misled some to believe it was designed for use in pistols.) The .356 Win. Copyright 2000-2023 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved. Mag. 26" Barrel. As of this writing, five of Midways .350 Legend options are in stock while the company reports having zero .30-30 cartridges available. The .35 Rem. Back in 1983 Winchester introduced the .356 Win. But they are so few in number that no general conclusion can be drawn from them. While similar to the M1 carbine, it lacked the stock, thereby making it a handgun. I have one, and I like it a lot. The Remington Model 673 Guide Rifle was chambered in .350 Rem. The barrel is a full 22 inches, like it always should have been, but the foolish design with the huge shark fin front sight turned hunters off, and it was dropped. We are also beginning to deliver those bullets as components. These are a fun gun to have , shoot and collect. I did read a article that said in the 1920s, the military tried experimented using a Remington model 1908 in 25 Remington and soldiers liked shooting it as compared to bolt action 30-06. 2 - The lighter bullet of the .30 Carbine made for much lighter ammunition. This design allowed the use of a simple blowback action, shared between the Winchester 1905, 1907, and 1910 rifles. ARMSCORs RIA 5.0 ST semi-automatic 9 mm Luger pistol represents the companys first handgun to be designed and manufactured here in the United States. Its safe to say that your local sporting goods store is more likely to stock the .30-30 Winchester than the .350 Legend. It arrived with three other cartridges designed to compete with Winchester's popular lever-action lineup. To put this into perspective, a Boeing 737 commercial airliner travels at a cruising speed of 600 mph, or 880 fps. The .308 Win. The muzzle velocity was stated to be 1850 fps, and the muzzle energy 1370 ft.-lbs. The .32 Self-Loading fired a 165 grain bullet at 1,390 feet per second (708 ft-lbs of energy) and the .35 Self-Loading fired a 180 grain bullet at 1,390 feet per second (772 ft-lbs of energy). Winchester also produced a load firing a 250 grain bullet at 1,870 feet per second (1,942 ft-lbs of energy). Many have complained about the cartridges themselves saying that they were way under powered and useless and only good for squirrels to coyotes, they must be talking about the 22LR. This is an Oviedo 1916 Spanish mauser chambered in .308 Winchester. Hornady has a Superformance load with a 200-grain SP at 2910 f.p.s. up to 0.358 inches and dubbed it the poor mans magnum.. If we compare the .300 Win. Ruger made a few bolt-actions some years back, and Remington made rifles in the 700 Classic line, but they are long gone. Another article, said at first Winchester wanted to use the 32 WSL for WW2, but military brass wanted 30 caliber, so Winchester designed the 30 Carbine, still popular today. I couldn't even begin to think of a reason to use such a bastard case/bullet size as the 351. I reload for both the 351 and 401 win sl, they do quite well, and are a hoot to shoot. Javascript is required. The US .30 cal M1 Carbine is one of the most important developments in the personal defense weapon story, being one of the very first* intermediate calibers to be adopted as standard issue by a nation, and arguablythe first purpose-designed PDW caliber in history. Feel free to take a look below at our bulk rifle ammunition for sale, including hunting and training rounds in the the popular calibers. The .30 Carbine, for all practical purposes, is a scaled-down Winchester .351 SL. Classified Ad (1000+), Search Full Text of Listings The M2 carbine was introduced late in World War II with a selective-fire switch allowing optional fully automatic fire at a rather high rate (850900 rpm) and a 30-round magazine. NICE BORE. These cartridges are remarkably similar from a ballistics standpoint, but the .30-30s slightly better long-distance performance gives it the edge in this category. hit the market in 1895 paired with Winchester's now . During the early 1900s, the folks atWinchester learned that their main competitor, Remington, was working on a centerfire autoloading rifle suitable for hunting big game. It was introduced in the bolt-action Model 70 in which it was trustworthy, but boring. Every competition has a winner, but the truth is, youre unlikely to notice much difference from the whitetail stand. When we pitted the 30 Carbine vs 5.56, the 5.56 won 7/10 categories and tied in two, thanks to its low recoil and high accuracy capabilities. It shoots well and is light and easy to carry while hunting. It feels like you get an initial kick when the gun goes off, which is then followed immediately by even harder hit when the heavy movable actions parts slam to the rear of the rifle. The .25 Rem., .30 Rem. That being said,some good did come out of the money and time spent on the development of the Model 1905 and the accompanying cartridges that would help the company in the future. The loud blast is the most oft-mentioned characteristic of the .30 Carbine cartridge when fired in a handgun.[10]. Hornady Critical Defense: 1990 fps. [6] But for the handloader who has taken the time to replace the recoil spring and buffer in the Winchester Model 1907, the .351 SL can be loaded to its original velocities. Winchester Model 74 semi auto .22 short. For more detailed ballistics information please refer to the exact round in question or contact the manufacturer for the pertinent information. OVERALL LENGTH 38? I have one, of course, and it is fun to shoot, but I would never use it on a serious big-game hunt. If the .35 Rem. It puts down Whitetail deer and wild hogs quite nicely. [4] When compared to other medium bore rounds, the .351 SL is closer in power to the .35 Remington (200 grain .358 bullet at 1,950 to 2,000 fps from a 20-inch barrel) than it is to the .357 Magnum carbine (158 grain bullet at about 1,800 fps). And I thought .348 Win was tough to find. It is a light rifle round[2][3][4][5] designed to be fired from the M1 carbine's 18-inch (458mm) barrel. the Henry's seem to be very solid and the action is danged smooth. ANTIQUE MADE IN 1891. After two years of development, Winchester did beat Remington to market with the Winchester Model 1905 rifle. Among Federals offerings, the highest BC for a .350 Legend is .259 while the highest BC for a .30-30 is .313. For the .30-30, however, the company offers multiple 150- and 170-grain loads as well as a 125-grain jacketed hollow point and a 170-grain Nosler partition that the company bills as ideal for elk. The .38 Smith & Wesson Special, designed in 1898, rocked the handgun realm with its ballistic performance making it a cartridge for the history books. While a few gun writers in the 1960s criticized the .351 SL for being inadequate as a deer hunting round, and the round's power has sometimes been compared to a .357 Magnum carbine load, the .351 SL's killing power falls somewhere between the .30-30 Winchester and the .35 Remington. The .30 Carbine is so weird in part because its descended from an innovative and influential but little-known family of rounds developed by Winchester in the early 1900s. all were more powerful-and may have been excellent hunting cartridges-but they are gone; rejected by the shooting public and banished to the junk heap of obsolescence. Mag.-all with a bigger, heavier bullet that will punch a bigger hole and penetrate deeper. Read today's "The Armed Citizen" entry for real stories of law-abiding citizens, past and present, who used their firearms to save lives. has been offered in just about every rifle action type ever conceived and a few handguns. and a 250-grain Partition load with a muzzle velocity of 2550 f.p.s. Lots of people seem to enjoy beating their head against a wall. This helps support the blog and allows me to continue to create free content thats useful to hunters like yourself. It would have been very similar to todays. Copyright 2023 Big Game Hunting Adventures LLC | All Rights Reserved, 25-06 vs 6.5 Creedmoor vs 270: The Results Might Surprise You, 6.5 Creedmoor vs 308 Winchester Debate Settled. Moderate, safe, bland and predictable. Included in that have been a whole bunch of deer, hogs and a bear or two. The 32 WSL duplicated the 32-40 ballistics. Nosler M21 Rifle Review: Read Before Buying! As a rule of thumb, when it comes to hunting, muzzle energy is what many hunters look at when deciding on what caliber of firearm / ammunition to select. I read back in the 1980s a couple of gunsmith were doing conversation of 30 Carbine rifles to 45 Win. Mag., and I think thats the only current production rifle in that cartridge. zero-we see that contrary to popular belief, a 35-caliber can be a long-range cartridge. When Winchester designed 350 Legend, we engineered all of the bullets from scratch to be optimized for the new cartridge. Seller: cma959. EARLY 3 DIGIT SERIAL NUMBER 904. The sad truth is that the active list of current .35-caliber rifles and cartridges is tragically short. Due in large part to the limited utility of those cartridge,the Model 1905 was not a major commercial success. Federal does not market any of their .350 Legend options as elk cartridges. Townsend Whelen praised it as a "good cartridge for deer and similar game in close timber."[3]. For hunting, it is considered a small-to-medium-game cartridge. The record contains a few examples of carbine-aimed fire felling an enemy soldier at this distance or perhaps a little more. Right now, I think that the Browning BLR lever-action rifle is the only production gun left on the market in .358 Win. sam be yourself net worth; used robalo boats for sale by owner; nolin lake ponderosa homes for sale; neville staple wife; university of miami pay grade scale c111 In 1965 Remington took it to the next level with the introduction of the Model 600 Magnum Carbine. Where carbine fire had proven killing effect, approximately 95 percent of the time the target was dropped at less than 50 yards. Common types used by the military with the carbine include: The .30 Carbine was the basis for Melvin M. Johnson's .22 Spitfire (5.7x33mm), necking the .30 Carbine's case down to a .22 caliber bullet. With a 200-grain bullet at 2460 f.p.s., it is a heavy-hitter on whitetails. These were theWinchester Self-Loading (WSL) rounds, including .32 WSL, .35 WSL, .351 WSL, and .401 WSL. Does anyone know if any gunsmith ever converted a 30 Carbine to 32 WSL? Nosler offers the .350 Rem. With a 200-grain bullet the .35 Whelen actually shoots a bit flatter than the .30-06 Sprg. We have a variety of deals on Rifle Ammo, Handgun Ammo, Shotgun Ammo & Rimfire Ammo, as well as ammo for target practice, plinking, hunting, or shooting competitions. That load actually produced 2825 f.p.s. The 94 Winchester would have been a good place for the .401 s.l. Winchester introduced the .351 SL in the Winchester Model 1907 self-loading rifle as a replacement for the Winchester Model 1905 and the .35 SL. The 32 Winchester Self-Loading Cartridge is the parent case for the 30 Carbine. One of the oldest and most popular cartridges of all time, the .30-30 Winchester, was released in 1895 and has been bringing down all manner of game ever since. MADE IN 1911. The .30 SL was an entirely conservative design, which hastened development considerably. The M1 Carbine is VERY reliable, sufficiently accurate for most urban needs, and is feather light. Been looking for a deal on a nice M1 Carbine these last few months in preparing for the eventual Zombie apocalypse. But the military has hundreds of millions of 30-06 ammo from WW1, and didnt want a new caliber. The Ruger Blackhawk revolver chambered for the .30 Carbine round has been in the catalogs since the late 1960s. There are also thousands more .30-30 guns floating around the used market, so if youre looking to save some change, the older cartridge is the way to go. In firearms with a blowback action like the Model 1903, the breech is not locked and depends on a balance between the cartridge pressure characteristics, the heavy breechblock, and a powerful recoil spring for reliable functioning. The two really dont compare. I have a 32 sl, 2 x 35 sl,351 and a 401. Both the Legend and the .30-30 are most comfortable in the medium-to-large-game category, but the .30-30 offers a slightly wider array of bullet weights and applications. They cant ride the love-it-or-hate-it controversy of the 6.5mm calibers. You will never get the recoil spring back in it. Note: some of the links below are affiliate links. 110 grain .30 Carbine fired from the M-1: Remington Green/White: 1976 fps. The .30 Carbine uses a lighter bullet (110 grain versus 165 grain) and improved powder. in the Big Bore Model 94. Released in 2019, the Legend was designed for use in states that restrict deer hunters to straight-wall cartridges and was billed as the fastest such cartridge currently in production. We offer a 100% Authenticity Guarantee on all products sold on our website. "Winchester Model 07 Self-Loading .351 Caliber: Its Past and Its Future with Modern Brass, Bullets and Powders" (2011) Speckin, Leonard pp 68-70, "Winchester Model 07 Self-Loading .351 Caliber: Its Past and Its Future with Modern Brass, Bullets and Powders" (2011) Speckin, Leonard pp 88-96, ".351 Winchester Self-Loading (.351 WSL, .351 SL)", https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=.351_Winchester_Self-Loading&oldid=1149960777, This page was last edited on 15 April 2023, at 14:17. The Model 1910 rifles were also prone to cracking of the forearm. After reading about the Winchester self loaders, I decided to look online to get more information and see what I could find out, It seems like most writers complain about the Winchester self loaders action, but this was a new product. I'm kind of surprised the .351 wasn't made originally to use .357 bullets, since that bore size had already been established by that point. Even the Standard gas operated semi auto rifle didnt sell well. WINCHESTER 07 351 SL 5RD Magazine; ORIGIN USA CALIBER .351 SL WEIGHT 7.75 LBS. Another comparison is a .357 Magnum cartridge fired from an 18" rifle barrel, which has a muzzle velocity range from about 1,7182,092ft/s (524638m/s) with energies at 7201,215ftlbf (9761,647J) for a 110gr (7.1g) bullet at the low end and a 125gr (8.1g) bullet on the high end.[11]. from a 20 inch rifle barrel, which is lower than any .30-30 load published in the Winchester ammo catalog. 300 blackout. Having owned several different rifles chambered in .351 WSL and .401 WSL over the years, I can attest to the fact that they are quite good at what they were designed to do: cleanly take North American deer and black bear size game when hunting in close cover where quick shots might be called for. This gun is in excellent condition in its orignal hardcase with keys. crying, My kingdom for a rifle.. They are still around, although finding a pristine example will be tough. Finally, they are on the heavy side at 8.5 pounds. It would cost into the 800dollar range just to rebuild one. On those gray, moody November days when I am feeling blue I take my Remington Model 141 pump-action rifle in .35 Rem. Most have had an active life in the woods earning their keep, not being just stored away in the closet. Sadly, I cant find a single major gunmaker chambering this cartridge today. Ill bet its been awhile since those cartridges have been seen in a hunting camp. Dear Socialists: I have no money for you. It was even used in Africa. Winchester - Model 70, Target Model, .243 Winchester. That higher BC allows the .30-30 to maintain a flatter trajectory and buck the wind more effectively. cartridgethe .351 Winchester Self-Loadingthat was substantially longer and more powerful than its .35-cal. They would probably still be around today. Barnes has a Vor-TX load with a 180-grain TSX bullet and a muzzle velocity of 2900 f.p.s. Sure a .351 would have been better, but weight savings was a HUGE priority for the design of the M1 Carbine. and the .32 Win. When we pitted the 30 Carbine vs 5.56, the 5.56 won 7/10 categories and tied in two, thanks to its low recoil and high accuracy capabilities. necked up to .35 caliber. They dont have that coveted NATO designation. We offer cheap ammo and bulk ammo deals on the most popular ammo calibers. The Model 1907 enjoyed a long production run of over 51 years and Winchester finally stopped manufacturing it in 1958. The leadership at Winchester realized that a large untapped market existed for the winner of the autoloader race, so they were determined to beat Remington to the punch and release their self-loading rifle first. Winchester only sold about 29,000 Model 1905 rifles from 1905 to 1923. The .351 Winchester fired the same 180 grain bullet as the .35 SL, but at a considerably higher velocity of 1,850 feet per second (1,368 ft-lbs of muzzle energy). The origins of the .35 Whelen are controversial even today. I have used this cartridge on moose with excellent results. With a 10 mph crosswind, the bullet shifts 7.4 inches and 17.8 inches at those distances, respectively. Perhaps Military Rifle would have been a better term. Thats a question I just dont understand. They have almost all abandoned the cartridge. In most Caliber Battles, one cartridge clearly offers more power and velocity across a range of loads and bullet weights. Please enable javascript before you are allowed to see this page. The .30-30 in this example is traveling about 5% faster at the muzzle, but it drops about 20% less than the .350. . was simply a .308 Win. At first, Winchester was tasked with developing the cartridge but did not submit a carbine design. Its spawn, the .351 Winchester Self Loader, fared a little better, but it was never in danger of greatness. The 351 WSL looks like a somewhat larger version of the 30 Carbine round, although the 351 is more powerful. THE USUAL CRACKS IN THE FORE END. 94 1946 excellent condition. Rifle Carbines are available in 40 S&W, and some use it to hunt deer and wild hogs, but even the 32 WSL and 35 WSL beat it in ballistics. What is the going price of an original box of 351 ammo. Norma offers factory ammunition, E.R. Shaw will make a rifle, as will any other custom, or semi-custom, riflemaker. A standard .30 Carbine ball bullet weighs 110 grains (7.1g); a complete loaded round weighs 195 grains (12.6g) and has a muzzle velocity of 1,990ft/s (610m/s), giving it 967ftlbf (1,311 joules) of energy when fired from the M1 carbine's 18-inch barrel. and .32 Rem. Another $300. Generally speaking, the higher the muzzle energy, the higher the stopping power. the Marlin 336 seems to have a beefier action though and is more easily scoped than the earlier Winchesters. That seems to happen a bunch to the rifles that had an active life! Very well cared for rifle, there is a barely noticable very small chip in the stock .Click for more info. The .30 Carbine (7.6233mm) is a rimless carbine/rifle cartridge used in the M1 carbine introduced in the 1940s. 1 - Existing barrel making equipment could be made use of. The most popular cartridges for hunting and even target shooting begin and end with the thirties. Shortly before World War II, the U.S. Army started a "light rifle" project to provide support personnel and rear area units a weapon with more firepower and accuracy than the standard issue M1911A1 .45 ACP handgun and half the weight of the standard issue M1 Garand .30-06 rifle or the .45 ACP Thompson submachine gun. The weapon was originally issued with a 15-round detachable magazine. Specifically, they had a significant problem developing a caliber powerful enough to be suitable for big game, yet usable in the 1903 type blowback autoloading action. Hopefully the forearm wood isn't splintered up. Perhaps thats how it should be, the masses rarely embrace true greatness. One would think the 32WSL, 35 WSL, 351 WSL and 401 WSL would still be in use today. bumping this, I obtained a magazine for the first one shown up top - for a mere $64. In 1987 Remington made an honest cartridge out of the .35 Whelen. The .35 Win., .35 Newton and .350 Griffin & Howe Mag. Overall, the .30 Carbine is a round that is historically important, but not terribly ballistically relevant to the modern discussion of personal defense weapon ammunition. They also balance rather far forward due to the very heavy breechblock extension that looks like an operating rod under the barrel. Re: Question for the experts: M1 Carbine vs. Winchester .351. That version is in some dispute, with evidence that Whelen himself developed the cartridge or at least worked with Howe on its development. Buy 3, however, or any 3 non gun non ammo items, and shipping is Free on the entire order. Commonly known asthe Model 07, the Model 1907 rifle was also popular for law enforcement use. SMOOTH PATINA METAL WITH GOOD WOOD AND A NICE BORE. If that's what floats your boat. Also H&R 1871, Inc., offered single-shot rifles in .35 Whelen from 1994 to 1996. 30 Carbine 22 HRN390562 7 LEE90524 19 LY7738060 17 RCBS09217 22 RED11022 30 Gibbs 1 HRN390541 2 LEE90519 2 LY7738041 3 RCBS09203 1 RED11001 30 Herrett 2 HRN390542 3 LEE90520 6 LY7738045 2 RCBS09202 2 RED11002 . The company has chambered several rifles in the cartridge including models in bolt-action, pump-action and semi-automatic. Therefore, the M1 carbine is significantly less powerful than the M1 Garand. That is to say, .30 M1 Carbine bullets travel 2.3 times the speed of a 737 airplane at cruising speed, while .30-30 Winchester bullets travel 2.7 times that same speed. This .350 Legend from Federal, for example, can launch a 160-grain bullet about 2,300 feet-per-second while this .30-30 fires a 150-grain bullet about the same speed. Paul explains the differences between the Winchester and Marlin .30-30 lever action rifles.Paul's Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/user?u=5769301 This video . 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