MochetVelo The permanent magnet can be static, as in the classical horse-shoe form, with the transformer windings rotating between the poles, or sometimes the magnet is mounted on the armature and rotates within the core of a static winding. In that case, it it best to dismantle the magneto to retrieve it. With other models, it may be inaccessible while the magneto is in situ, for example underneath. Then wash the points with petrol and dry them. Thank you for your patience. If you can see the slip-ring through the pick-up hole in the main housing, check that the brass ring or segment of the slip-ring is brass coloured (albeit possibly a bit dirty or tarnished), but not completely black. Housings can sometimes get misshapen, in which case try to rectify that. Another cause of atom disorientation is mechanical shock, hammer blows or dropping the unit onto a hard surface, etc. This induces an EMF in the coil, which in turn causes a current to flow. Initial installation does require the After a full rebuild my motor started right up, rode for 5 minutes, stopped, no spark. detailed instructions in our 'condensectomy' Click Here to view Lucas face cam (magdyno) parts manual. Then check that the contact-breaker assembly is not wobbly on the end of the shaft. 0000009971 00000 n themselves. At least I assume so: My timing light (seen in photo clamped to plug wire #1) illuminates correctly when plug #1 is unscrewed from the engine and sparks, but it does not light up when the plug is screwed into the engine. Many should appreciate. Check the state of the contact return spring and replace if broken. Undo the contact-breaker centre-screw and remove the contact-breaker assembly. A lot of carbon dust on the inside of the pick-up indicates that the brush is too soft, in which case it should be replaced with a brush of the correct grade. For example, in the Lucas K1F and K2F, the earth brush is located on top inboard of the main mounting flange. Sign up for a new account in our community. If you are using an auto-advance timing gear, stuff a length of fuel line in the mech to hold it at full . An ignition magneto (also called a high-tension magneto) is an older type of ignition system used in spark-ignition engines (such as petrol engines). In the Lucas MO1, it is on one side, adjacent the contact-breaker housing. detailed support we offer. 1. This could be because: the brush isnt projecting far enough to touch the slip ring, so check that as best you can. 82 23 For example: Check as best you can that the brush is actually making contact with the track on which it runs. As the field collapses rapidly there is a large voltage induced (as described by Faraday's Law) across the primary coil. books. The plugs all light when loosened, but not when installed. If you have an auto-ranging meter, the reading might jump about a bit on the way while it changes scales. A Therefore, taking the sparking plug(s) out of the engine, laying them on the cylinder head and checking whether the magneto will produce a spark at kickstart speeds is not a sufficient test. BTH mags utilized condensers made from mica. Put a smear of grease on the lobe(s) of the cam. I'm working on a Lucas Mag right now for the first time and this is extremely helpful. Checked it over and found no spark. Regrettably, some Acrobat .pdf files might not JavaScript is disabled. When screwed in the head, however, the plugs make no spark. Blue spark is great but if it can only jump .03" when external of a cylinder with no compression pressureswhen you add the compression and fuel mix it will fall on its face. Norsk old-style capacitor (the 'condensectomy') and Put a smear of grease on the surface of the cam that engages its housing. Take a look at some of the equipment we "Colonel fair is fair: if I nail Hotlips and punch Hawkeye can I go home too?". You must log in or register to reply here. The reading should be substantially the same as the reading you obtained in the internal HT continuity section. Oil on the inside of the pick-up is usually indicative of a failure of the magnetos oil seal, in which case the magneto will need a more complete overhaul. Mechanical - Bearings, insulation, washers and shimming the armature. The spark is fine on this coil, keep in mind the faster you turn a mag, the better the spark. With a multimeter, check the resistance between the brass of the slip ring and the end of the armature shaft (armature earth). Coil may still function somewhat and not completely failed but ratio of turns lost because of insulation breakdown. 0000007301 00000 n These were on older equipment which hadcomplete tune upsthat wentto the field and didn't work more than a hand full or two of times and then they would begin to start hard, no start or run for a short time and shut off then not restart. Check the state of the tappet and replace if necessary. Translate service. The irony here is that usually these magnetos fail to spark. at some of the equipment we use in our workshop for magneto servicing If you are having trouble with your ignition system we recommend that you first change your spark plugs and HT leads. Initially this was done because it was easier to provide good insulation for the secondary winding of an external coil than it was in a coil buried in the construction of the magneto (early magnetos had the coil assembly externally to the rotating parts to make them easier to insulateat the expense of efficiency). V-TWINS Magnetos are always a compromise, usually producing a strong spark to one cylinder and a weaker one to the other. startxref grade to avoid carbon deposits on the slip If the resistance is higher than about 15,000 ohms, it indicates a bad connection. As the magnet moves with respect to the coil, the magnetic flux linkage of the coil changes. DO NOT ATTEMPT THIS IF YOU ARE FITTED WITH A PACEMAKER, OR HAVE A HEART CONDITION, OR IF YOU REALLY HATE ELECTRIC SHOCKS. Lucas workshop instructions - magnetos Library Robert Bosch Documentation American Bosch workshop instructions Patents Books and learnd papers Workshop instructions - Lucas magnetos N1, KN1, K1F, K2F, KVF MO1L, MN2L Redesigned contact breaker for ring cam models SR magnetos (general info.) tour of some of our specialised workshop BTW, Michael, that's a darn clever trick/solution! 0000002409 00000 n Brightspark Magnetos Ltd disclaims responsibility for any errors unfortunately the repair did not work as the Coil did not work so it had to be sent to rewinding. NEWS FLASH - March 2020 As you will understand, with the Covid-19 pandemic shutting down most normal business, we are not able to despatch orders for the time being. VerticalScope Inc., 111 Peter Street, Suite 600, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada. If it has any unusual marks, try to work out what caused them and whether anything should/could be done about them. Others have an earth brush between the main body of the magneto and an earth track of the armature. We would therefore strongly advise against ever trying to make a magneto strike a spark across a gap of anything in excess of 7.5 mm in fresh air. No this is the type of stuff I like logging in to see! Check the state of the points surfaces. I highly doubt it is excessive unless someone has been grinding the rotor or the cap. part-exchange. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Lucas (and most other) capacitors made in the 50's & 60's used a paper dielectric. Any suggestions? Capacitors, which are short-term storage devices, often fail in older magnetos due to dielectric degradation (short circuit) or conductor breakage (open circuit). pouvons vous aider soit en franais, soit en In the type known as a shuttle magneto, the engine rotates a coil of wire between the poles of a magnet. Grease. the brush spring is not touching the terminal in the pick-up holder; the connection between the cable and the pick-up is corroded; the screw in the plug cap has gone down the side of the HT cable and not down its centre; Slip-ring This can mask a fault on these cars as the vehicle will continue to run until the other fails. 0000001913 00000 n If there is a lubricating felt, soak it in oil. 0000001184 00000 n If the timing is not correct on both lobes, the reason could be that: the contact-breaker assembly is wobbly on the end of the armature; the cam or its housing were incorrectly machined (rare); with ring-cam magnetos, the armature and cam are not coaxial due to the outer race of the bearing at the contact-breaker end not being seated properly by its insulator in the cam housing. Remove the cam, carefully noting which way round it goes and which notches in it engage where. If an earth brush is fitted behind the back-plate, check that the spring is good, that the brush is free to move and that it is not unduly worn in length or diameter. Copyright 2023, Antique Automobile Club of America. I would definitely try another condenser if it were me. If nobody is available, then you can make a test plug by removing the earth electrode from an old, but functional, sparking plug. I can guarantee every British motorcycle powered by a magneto i either not delivering maximum spark and/or is on the verge of failing if the original Lucas capacitor has not been replaced. I know a great starting engine will fire a plug with 3/16" gap when external of a cylinder. If higher than that, investigate. I did notice a very small spark between the contact breaker points. instruments available for immediate use, and a Voltage across the primary coil results in a proportional voltage being induced across the secondary winding of the coil. Armoto LtdRegistered & Trading Address:Unit 26, M1 Commerce Park, Markham Lane, Duckmanton, Chesterfield S44 5HSTelephone: 01246 826667 | sales@armoto.co.ukRegistered in England Company No. degrade with age. Now let the slip ring dry out with the pick-ups still removed. On many Rolls Royce models there is a dual ignition system. Lister D Magneto Lucas RS1 full rebuild but still no spark Coil Fail. With the contact-breaker assembly still removed from the magneto, and with a multimeter set to measure resistance, check that with the points closed there is a short circuit between them (as close to 0 as your multimeter goes). As the points begin to open, point spacing is initially such that the voltage across the primary coil would arc across the points. English If it is several thousand ohms, it indicates that the HT lead is resistive and/or the plug cap is fitted with a suppressor resistor. With the Lucas KN1, it is under the identification tag. Disassemble the advance/retard mechanism carefully noting which part goes where. It should fit properly in only one precise position. I tested the HT wire and spark plug and both are fine. Check the condition of the HT lead(s) and plug-cap(s) and replace where necessary. . If there are any, replace the pick-up. Always good to learn how to check lucas parts, one of the weaker parts of a triumph motor.. Classic Cycles inc. 2199 N. Batavia Suite J. We provide With the mag on the engine, there is a spark at all 4 plugs . The plugs are non resistor, gaped at -025", and are new. Not sure what came off, but 1930s/40s I would have thought.prefer collection, but would post. not load correctly in the translated versions of the pages. It shouldnt be very many ohms, and certainly less than 30 ohms. Our patented EasyCap is a simple 0000003086 00000 n After a series of checks, I sent it back to the rebuilder. An ignition magneto (also called a high-tension magneto) is an older type of ignition system used in spark-ignition engines (such as petrol engines). 0000006861 00000 n In more modern times, insulation materials have improved to the point where constructing self-contained magnetos is relatively easy, but energy transfer systems are still used where the ultimate in reliability is required such as in aviation engines. magnetos available for sale or in Check that the felt pad in the end of the screw holding together the two blocks of the points assembly is present and good, and soak it in oil. and just how were you able to find one of those bastards that still worked?!?!?! Put it on bike, timed, no spark. detailed guide to maintaining and Lucas vertical magneto in good condition and sparking. Reassemble and check operation. On more advanced magnetos the cam ring can be rotated by an external linkage to alter the ignition timing. Translations provided by the Google Translate service. pages on how to do that. item. You are using an out of date browser. Learn how and when to remove this template message, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ignition_magneto&oldid=1150712364, Short description is different from Wikidata, Articles with unsourced statements from January 2023, Articles needing additional references from January 2023, All articles needing additional references, Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License 3.0, This page was last edited on 19 April 2023, at 18:38. I forgot about this. i totally agree. With the points fully open, adjust the points gap to 0.012 (0.3 mm). We will check all the parts of the magneto for faults and will provide a firm quotation for a repair along with a description of the magneto repair required. only for magnetos, but also classic motorcycle Without suppressor: suppressor: Percentage difference with suppressor: Peak HT voltage to initiate spark: 9600 V: 10600 V at magneto: 10.4 %: 9300 V at spark gap-3.1 %: DC component of HT current immediately after striking spark: 53 mA: 52 mA-1.8 % Check for wear and replace any worn parts. Check that the advance/retard mechanism reliably rotates the cam back and forth. If there are any, repeat until the paper comes out clean. Brightspark Magnetos Ltd disclaims responsibility for any Copyright 2023, Antique Automobile Club of America. It appears that magnetio does not have in impulse coupling which means the engine must turn over much faster to develop as hot a spark as if there was an impulse. and other magneto parts. A really nice one will jump 1/2"or better. If there is a main-body earth brush and it is accessible, remove it and check that the spring is good, that the brush is free to move in the holder and that the brush is not unduly worn in length or diameter. 82 0 obj<> endobj I pulled my B34 out after the winter and could not get it started. 0000005952 00000 n 0000013093 00000 n [6], The first car to use magneto ignition was the 1901 German Mercedes 35 hp racing car, followed by various cars produced by Benz, Mors, Turcat-Mery, and Nesseldorf. With the earth brush(es) now replaced, measure the resistance between the back-plate of the contact breaker assembly and the main body of the magneto. Svensk Can you rig up real cables? And a f-ing video! Dansk This expediential degradation may appear to be sudden when the fault occurs. Now line up your degree wheel with the pointer at 38*. errors in the translations. Your mag likely has a bad condensor. information aggregated from many sources. If your magneto is loosing spark after a short amount of time running, or is hard to start it is most likely a condenser failure. The timing marks should not wander with the RPM of the drill. Put 2 hours of flawless time on the bench. The Magneto Guys - Vintage, Veteran, Classic Magneto Repairs Lucas Magnetos We have overhauled and repaired these Lucas magnetos and then returned them to their owners. Used on many cars in the early 20th century, ignition magnetos were largely replaced by induction coil ignition systems. A good Wico X series mag will jump at least 3/8" air gap. However, provided the reading is more than about 500 ohms, it is probably OK. Thanks mmcdonald, all good info. English It uses a Bosch ZA4 magneto (rebuilt about 10 years back) which produces a nice blue spark in the plugs when they are out of the engine. but enjoy doing it, with confidence, relying on the Also, some pattern contact-breaker assemblies are too large at the fat end and need to be filed or ground to size. We also provide The last of these possible reasons is very often the cause. Magneto parts We also sell our Brightspark range of specially-selected, top-quality, British-made slip rings and pick-ups for Lucas and BTH magnetos. I would narrow the plug gaps to .020" and see what happens. Really need a coil tester. The result in high resistance will reduce the current flow in the primary winding and reduce the magnetic flux which adversely effects the secondary winding output voltage. Repeat with clean pieces of petrol-moistened rag, until the rag comes out clean. Over time the HT leads can degrade and reduce the potential difference at the spark plug. With a multimeter, check the resistance between the tip of the pick-up brush and the terminal in the plug cap. Comment Guidelines: Do post respectful and insightful comments. This Lucas KVF magneto was rebuilt 7,000 miles ago and failed at around 3,000 miles with loss of spark on one cylinder. The reading will probably be a fraction of an ohm. Now that the slip ring has dried off, replace the pick-up(s). This disables the magneto to reduce the risk of electric shock and fire. Downloadable drawings, all for free, for specially-selected, top-quality, British-made Check that the spring of the pick-up brush is good, that the brush is free to move in its holder and that it is not unduly worn in length or diameter. sequences illustrating the importance of Main-body Earth Brushes and Bearing Insulators: Some magnetos have an earth brush between the contact-breaker back-plate and the contact breaker housing. (Chinese) Still here since 1996 serving BritBike enthusiasts. If the reading is less than 3000 ohms, it would be unusual, but is indicative of a problem. Parts lists and workshop instructions, not On the Lucas magnetos, the spec is to jump a .200 gap at 200 rpm for the slow speed test. It uses a magneto and a transformer to make pulses of high voltage for the spark plugs.The older term "high-tension" means "high-voltage".Used on many cars in the early 20th century, ignition magnetos were largely replaced by induction coil . Just to reinforce a point here of something very well done that you did in the how-to: when you're testing a mag like this, ALWAYS have the plug wires hooked up with a gap (or plugs) to ground so that energy has somewhere to go. Great post! patterns for shims, gaskets and bearing 0000001015 00000 n If it is significantly lower, then there is probably a short-circuit in the contact-breaker assembly or in the armature. I'll try the 3/16" gap test. Deutsch dynamos, regulators, alternators and If your multimeter can measure capacitance, the reading should be within 10% of: 150 nF (0.15 uF) for the C01, C02, C03, C05 and CU/150 EasyCaps; 220 nF (0.22 uF) for the C06, C07 and CU/220 EasyCaps. If excessively worn, replace the heel (BTH), or the moving-point assembly (Lucas). if it doesn't jump 3/16" double check the points to see if they are shiny clean the whole face of each point. Check for any dirty marks on the paper. Remove two nuts and funny-looking-long-thing that attaches the mag to the engine Check the plug-wires at the end that goes into the mag .and remove sparkplug-cap and make sure you have a good connection (maybe you'll want to cut of a bit and re-atttach) Remove the two high-tension pick-ups from the mag The other thing I have noticed is the spark will arc to ground when compression is on the plug if external arcingis the path of least resistance. To have the discharge go arc back into the coil itself or the mag housing causes some serious damage. We also have kits for more unusual magnetos, such as the BTH, ML, Magnetos France, Morel, Lucas wader, Lucas KVF, etc., and for cars. With BTH devices, if the moving point assembly fouls the eccentric pin, the pin will need to be adjusted. information as we can about the electrical equipment Because the magneto has low voltage output at low speed, starting an engine is more difficult. Built into the case of the magneto are magnets, permanent magnets. If you havent already done so, undo the contact-breaker centre-screw and remove the contact-breaker assembly. They were used in the village forge in Cullworth (northaptonshire). Links to other service providers can be found DIY Magneto Maintenance and Troubleshooting If the coil has been in service since the magneto was new there is a good chance the insulation has started to break down, allowing voltage to track. Any high tension magneto will have way more than 7 ohms resistance on the secondary circuit. A simple magneto (an electrical generator using permanent magnets) is able to produce relatively low voltage electricity, however it is unable to produce the high voltages required by a spark plug as used in most modern engines (aside from diesel engines). While holding it in that position, tighten the centre screw, but do not use undue force. Another problem, due to constant hot, cold, expansion, contraction, vibration or mechanical impact, is breakage of the fine winding wire. To all you guys with Lucas magnetos with problems, get ready to see it fully functional for about $23 shipped, along with a little work in your garage. If it is significantly higher, there is a bad connection or break in the low-tension circuit, in which case the magneto will need a more complete overhaul. Due to the inevitable losses in the system, this oscillation decays fairly rapidly. An importance cause of field strength reduction is the removal of the magnet from its normal situation without fitting a keeper, a device designed to maintain the integrity of the magnetic circuit. SR1, SR2 & SR4 magnetos (workshop instructions) The reading should be between 0.5 and 0.7 ohms greater than your first reading. The magneto is rebuilt by a reputable US shop. In the inductor magneto, the magnet is rotated and the coil remains stationary. magnetos and capacitors (for those who wish to how they work; and to collate as much other If the magneto is fitted with, or about to be fitted with, a Brightspark EasyCap, you can perform some basic checks on the EasyCap. 0000003162 00000 n In the right direction (clockwise, looking at the points) and a fairly healthy looking spark should jump the gap from one ht at a time, lead to casing. You can check for this by trying to start in a dark area with no lighting. slip rings and pick-ups for Lucas and BTH and overhauls. Replace the main-body earth brush, if applicable. that more owners can not only maintain their magnetos, However, if the outside of the pick-up is also oily, perhaps its all caused by an engine oil leak. have a small choice of reconditioned Likes: 260. scotland. This video details the work done to the magneto so far. Do similar tests with the HT lead(s) and the plug-cap(s). The engine needed some attention, which it has now received, but I had to take the magneto off. If they look good I would replace the condenser if it has one and retest. i found that is a cheaper, easier way to go than doing it my self with refurbished parts. any service or repair work until further notice. Twin sparks provide two flame fronts within the cylinder, these two flame fronts decreasing the time needed for the fuel charge to burn. with a fixed register in the cam housing and with the advance/retard actuator). Once the insulation has been broken down once, it often makes it easier for it to be broken down again. If youre giving your magneto a thorough check over, we suggest you tackle jobs in the order shown. 0000004414 00000 n With larger gaps, if the magneto is provided with a safety gap, the spark is more likely to jump there where it cant be seen, so thats a waste of time. downloadable drawings for those of you who making your own bearing and slip-ring pullers; If you do not obtain readings substantially the same as the reading you obtained in the internal HT continuity section, and if everything else you previously checked is still good, it indicates that the pick-up brush(es) is/are not making good electrical contact with the brass of the slip ring. With your multimeter set to display resistance and connected to the opposite faces of the circuit board of the EasyCap (and with your fingers touching no more than one side of the circuit), the meter reading should climb up from a low value until it goes off the scale (OL). The readings for the two plug caps should now be swapped around. Click on a button to see magnetos from other manufacturers Bosch BTH Others Click on any picture to get a larger view JRC Engineering Inc. 3110 Indian Ave Unit 1E, Perris, CA, 92571. As the size of the combustion chamber determines the time to burn the fuel charge, dual ignition was especially important for the large-bore aircraft engines around World War II where it was necessary to combust the entire fuel mixture in a shorter time than a single plug could provide, in order to build peak cylinder pressure at the rpm desired. The ratio of turns in the secondary winding to the number of turns in the primary winding, is called the turns ratio. Please phone or email for details. One of the plug caps should give a reading which is substantially the same as the reading you obtained in the internal HT continuity section. If working on your own, holding the end of the HT cable steady 6 mm from the engine is difficult when kicking the starter. I do not think this is your issue because the timing light does not trigger. replacement for the condenser (capacitor) in Norsk The voltage generated across magneto coils is quite high, in the order of 20,000 volt if no spark plugs are in place. If sloppy, consider fitting a new moving point (Lucas), bush (BTH), or pivot post. Contact Us - DO NOT EMAIL CAR QUESTIONS. Wrap some rag around the end of a stick about 1/4 diameter, moisten it with petrol or other cleaning fluid (but not so much that it is dripping), poke it through the pick-up hole in the magneto body, and rotate the armature to clean the slip ring. I would be interested to hear from people who either have seen this running or know of similar setups in forges. Please get in contact if you know anything about aerograph compressors especially if you have technical drawings.Last, but not least, if you want to receive notifications when more videos in this series are uploaded please subscribe to the channel. After you get your spark strong enough, then worry about cap and rotor. 0000003777 00000 n He got it and thought the ring the points rides in came out and just needed pushed in. This will not stop the coil from working. Post in the forum instead. Open the points and blow between them to dislodge any remnants of paper. Espaol With the engine running, place your hand over the pick-up with the same hand also touching the magneto body.

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